If there’s one thing I can guarantee from this year; you’re going to see a lot of lists. “Top 17 Movies,” “Best 50 TV Shows,” or “27 Reasons To Stop Watching TV Forever” … You get the point.

Well, we don’t like lists.

I sat down with my editor, Cheyne Gilmore, who claims to watch an “unhealthy amount” of TV to discuss. We covered as much as we could, and probably too much on certain shows, but we get into some interesting things. For instance, when will an animated show win for Best Comedy? Is Mike Ehrmantraut one of the best TV characters of all time? Has TV already peaked?

Let’s start with…

THE BEST TV OF 2017

Netflix And Ill

Cheyne Gilmore: “I have this thing with TV this year. I love it, but this is the first year I feel it’s a slow death for TV.”

Steve Pipps: “Interesting.”

C: “Like “they” talk about Peak TV and the Golden Age of TV. The Golden Age starts around Sopranos and ends with Mad Men. Peak TV is anything after Mad Men to Present. I believe is the classification.”

S: “I was just at a holiday party this weekend talking to a writer and while it’s pretty obvious TV is the place to be right now, he said in the next few years we’ll see the slow death of network TV, and the only place to be is Hulu, Netflix or Amazon.”

C: “Absolutely. However, Netflix is already changing their model regarding those “blank check, do whatever you want” days are going to end. There’s just so much shit out there right now. Last year set the record for scripted shows and this year beat that. I can compare it to Marvel. So, when Avengers came out, I fucking loved it. Four years later I can’t watch another Marvel movie. They just figured out the formula, and it’s boring. That’s happening with TV. Don’t get me wrong; there are a lot of things out there that are still trying to push the medium, but everyone is trying to make another Breaking Bad or The Wire. It’s like the law of diminishing returns it starts to turn into the norm and gets a little boring.”

S: “I’ve never thought of it that way. You’re right, there’s just so much content. It’s impossible for anyone to get through it all. So, I guess even if TV shits the bed, I’ll have all the shows I didn’t get around to watch until things get better.”

C: “I love being a TV fan. I love the fact that Netflix has something new every Thursday even though the service is really the benchmark for mediocre content when it comes to TV. All right let’s get into Netflix. Not quite my top shows of the year, but they probably came out with their three best shows this year. Glow, Ozark and Mindhunter. Glow is rad for what it is. Ozark was just super Fucking fun. It’s Breaking Bad.”

S: “I had a big problem with Ozark, I couldn’t get through the pilot. Bateman was great, but I just didn’t care enough. They needed to get to the Ozarks faster in my opinion.”

C: “Pilots are pilots, but by episode 4, it’s just so watchable. It’s the perfect Bateman role. I was surprised he didn’t get a nod at the Golden Globes. Mindhunter, as far as a piece of work, is probably the best season of TV that Netflix has produced. Best season front to back from an artistic achievement point of view.”

S: “I think Master of None season 2 could rival that right now.”

C: “Season 2 was good. A lot better than season 1, which I couldn’t stand. It was like Louis, they were trying to do Louis.”

S: “This season, the way it starts off, is just incredible with the Black and White Bicycle Thief riff.”

C: “So good!”

S: “… And then the way it carries the slow burn of a relationship with Alessandra Mastronardi through the whole season was incredible. So fun to watch. It helped that she was just so gorgeous.”

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34QrNDMp3VY]

C: “She’s an actress from a bygone era, she’s something else. Unbelievable, and she was kind of the sticking point for the show.”

S: “Exactly, and that’s why you can have a five minute shot of Aziz riding in an Uber after she gets out and leaves him. That close up is so intense for the whole five minutes. When you can pull that off you’ve built a great relationship.”

C: “Even without her, the “Thanksgiving” episode was so good. The whole season was a lot more accessible. The addition of Alessandra was a game changer. I was hyped on that show a lot this season, but Mindhunter just felt so cinematic.”

S:”Cinematic is a great way to describe Mindhunter. The show did one specific thing that set the bar for me in recent years in terms of character work, Holden Ford’s season transformation was so awesome.”

C: “Well, first off, the casting choice for Ford was genius. It threw me off the way Jonathan Groff played that role. I knew nothing about him, never seen Glee or Looking, but he was awesome. I wasn’t super hyped on Tench, the off-brand Tom Sizemore, Holt McCallany. He’s like Sizemore without the range or the edge.”

S:” McCallany’s character was hit or miss for me, but I just haven’t seen as good of a character arc in a single season of TV, as Groff’s character had, in years.”

C: “The way they reel that in, I didn’t see it coming.”

S: “He got so big for his britches so quickly that when he get’s that hug and comes back down to earth, he finally feels real again.”

C: “My one knock on the whole show, and it was 100% the actor, was the girlfriend, Hannah Gross. I couldn’t deal with it.”

S: “I can see that. The relationship felt forced, but I didn’t hate it that much.”

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siR0GYuH0aY]

C: “We’re going off the rails here, Netflix had some top-notch shows, but there were so many good ones. What were some of the greats this season? We hit Mindhunter, which I would put in between the “Great” and “Caught Me By Surprise” categories.”

S: “Romp with serial killers?”

Noah Hawley And The Fargo Disappointment

S: “It’s tough because there’s just so much TV, but some tops for me were Bojack Horseman, Legion, Better Call Saul…”

C: “Yes, good call on Legion. I wanted to bring that up.”

S: “I have a soft spot for Hawley. It was just so out there, and batshit that I loved it.”

C: “There were four episodes or so in Legion where I wondered where it was going, and as good of a show as it was in terms of visual style. The original approach to the genre that it took a lot of shit in the middle I could do without. Great pilot and a great finale.  It looked like nothing else on TV, I’m interested in S2.”

S: “Agreed, visually incredible. It did meander a bit in the middle, unsurprisingly the episode that he didn’t write. The way Hawley works is ridiculous. He doesn’t write on weekends, he writes the episodes, and the first draft is generally what you see on screen, but he’s so busy. He’s taking more and more time away from his other shows like Fargo. Which is why I think Fargo took such a dive this season. He has less and less hand in the writing.”

C: “What a disappointment. That was my number one disappointment this year for a lot of reasons. I want to talk more about that later, but it’s interesting because in comparison to what else is out there, it wasn’t a necessarily a bad season of TV. That’s where we’re at right now, the quality level is so high. If Fargo season 3 show came out five years ago, it would blow everyone’s mind.”

S: “It was all about the perspective. We had this but now we get this.”

C: “Pour out some liquor for Fargo because it wasn’t where it needed to be.”

The Most Underrated Show On TV And The Picks Of The Year

S: “I was anticipating, Better Call Saul. It was another great season. The way they continue to explore the brotherly relationship is so good. Then the way he fucks Chuck over with the battery is ruthlessly beautiful.”

C: “I’m so glad you put this on your list because I completely forgot about it, which is a travesty. I think I might be taking Better Call Saul for granted. This was the best season so far. Nothing is being forced, bringing Giancarlo Esposito was perfect. We’re coming to the Breaking Bad timeline, there’s no way the show can go longer than two more seasons. It definitely has to come to the present. You’re gonna see Pinkman and you’re gonna see Walter.”

S: “Damn it, I hope not. I don’t want Walter to ever come back. His entire character’s legacy needs to stay dead. The way they spanned three seasons on a plot that any other show would have covered in one says it all. The care they take in telling this story leads me to believe they won’t fuck it up.”

C: “It’ll be interesting to see how they continue to handle that crossover. They’ve done it so well so far. For a show that never should have worked, the differences in comparison to Breaking Bad are incredible. This show is completely different in its subtlety and relationship to the characters. Not to take anything away from Breaking Bad because it’s still a better show, Better Call Saul is just so consistently good and getting better.”

S: “That’s maybe my top choice for this year. Yours?”

C: “The show for me, this year, is Halt and Catch Fire. To put it into context, my “greatest show ever” breakdown is The Wire, Mad Men and Breaking Bad. Halt and Catch Fire hit Mad Men territory for me this season. The way the show handles the characters, their relationships and also the passage of time, is really astonishing. Every single actor should have won multiple Emmys; Lee Pace should be a fucking superstar, and McKenzie Davis is great and starting to blow up (rightfully so). Also, what a gracefully perfect ending; one of the most satisfying endings to a show.”

S: “I haven’t seen more than the first season. Honestly, I didn’t realize it was still on, it’s just slipped under my radar. I didn’t realize that was the final season.”

C: “You have to see it. I can’t say enough about it. Four strong seasons of TV where every season just got better. Really, every show should be limited to three to four seasons; best way to do it.”

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WtEhc0xOcE]

S: “By all means. It’s very easy to overstay your welcome on TV. Any others you just loved?”

C: “The other show for me, which falls into the Halt and Catch Fire territory, The Leftovers. If you watch the first season you have to see the second season before you can form a solid opinion.”

S: “I’ve only seen the first two episodes of season 2. I didn’t love it, obviously, since I didn’t stick with it, but I pretty much hated the first season.”

C: “I kind of did too. Similar to Halt and Catch Fire, both of these shows pull massive pivots after season 1 into amazing TV. The first season was one of the most depressing iterations of television and while the finale for season 1 was really good, it probably should have been like episode five of season one. What they do in the second season goes into more… Lindelof/Lost, territory and it works. There’s a ton of world building and mysticism, at its core, it’s about a single relationship.”

S: “Which is fine because I don’t care about what happened to the people who disappeared, I just want to know how the people who are left cope with the loss.”

C: “Exactly. So, the third season while not as good as season 2 had another phenomenal finale. I’m giving my top shows a lot of props here, but Lindelof made up for Lost with The Leftovers series finale. He finally got to make some reparations with his handling of the closing of this show.”

S: “Wow, that’s some high praise. I saw that in an article before we sat down here and was shocked because there’s so much vitriol for the end of Lost.”

C: “One of the best things about The leftovers was Justin Theroux. He gets put in the category of the pretty boy husband of Jenniffer Aniston, and isn’t taken seriously enough, but he’s a good actor and an even better writer. There are some great actors on the show… Amy Brenneman, Scott Glenn, Carrie Coon…”

S: “And it basically jumpstarted her film career. Gone Girl came out that same year, she might have done some stage acting, but The Leftovers was a big break for her.”

C: “She’s a great actor. If there was one person who got fucked on that show, it was her for not getting any Emmy love. The Leftovers is going to be one of those shows that people go back to and realize how good of a show it is. I have a hard tie for shows of the year… It’s The Leftovers or Halt and Catch Fire for sure.”

S: “I’ve got to say Better Call Saul, Mindhuner and maybe Bojack Horseman just to round it out with a little change of pace.”

C: “I’ve never watched Bojack. I’m still stuck on the first season. It doesn’t get me the way Rick and Morty got me. That show is just so rad, and so watchable. So intelligently funny. It keeps getting better, this last season was the best season. Pickle Rick.”

S: “Pickle Rick. I love Rick and Morty, I can watch it over and over, but the thing with Bojack, you need to get past the first season. While it’s good and dark and comedic, the writers don’t hit their groove until seasons 3 and 4. They realized they’re Bojack, they can do whatever the fuck they want now. The writing is so fucking good. There’s an episode this season where they poke fun at America’s gun laws, and they pass gun legislation in a matter of scenes. The way they deal with time in this season is genius. There isn’t another show expedites things in this way, and still services everything they need to service.”

C: “It’s so clever and I love what it’s about. I know I’ll eventually get to it, so many people have been telling me I need to.”

S: “The things they do are just really bold. You can jump back to season three and the silent episode. The way they make you care about an animated horseman in that episode is fascinating. The writers also get into Alzheimer’s for an episode, and the way they portray it onscreen is incredible. It’s just a blank white screen and a single person with a scratched out face. Because she can’t fully recognize who the person is, it’s just an embodiment of a person in her mind. It’s so crazy to call this a comedy as they do.”

C: “Do you think there’s ever going to be a time an adult cartoon is going to win best drama or comedy?”

S: “We’re pushing the limit now.”

C: “It has to happen soon. Rick and Morty, I’d argue, is one of the funniest shows on TV right now.”

S: “The problem is, as they continually innovate for animated, they’re doing the same for live action. Every year it’s getting better across the board. Like Atlanta last year.”

C: “Yeah, best show last year. I think what matters is, you can do things you’ve never seen before with animation. The writing has to be that much more clever, and then visuals add so many original components. I think that you can get into places in an animated comedy that you just can’t with live action. The hardest part is just convincing people that this is serious. You’re using Atlanta as a counter-argument, but that’s a once in a generation show. The way they can cover transphobia, problems with the penal system, racism, inter-racism in such a deep thorough way while still being funny.”

S: “Not sure why I pulled that, because you’re right, it’s hard to draw a comparison, but as they continue to push stylistically with the live action it’s gonna be harder for the animation writers to bridge the gap for the Emmy voters.”

C: “Another one I haven’t seen this year that you’ve got on your list is Handmaid’s Tale. Only because I hate Hulu, they don’t let you binge which is fucking stupid.”

S: “That get’s into my…”

…Check Part 2 for our surprises, and disappointments of 2017.

-Steve